I disagree it fits with the law and would probably argue that I a) didn’t intend to main a gain for myself or another and b) didn’t intend to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss
Even going into the act deeper, there is actually only recourse for material losses - such as absconding property, physical cash or services that cost money.
I can’t see a single thing that would turn this into a criminal dispute over a contractual dispute. Intention is a very high bar to go against normally and reasonable doubt is a very very high bar.
But actually, I agree it’s morally wrong to do. So I will adjust my salary only to include the money that touches my hands routinely as income
This is ChatGPT, and might be slightly incorrect (or just not up to date/looking at the wrong dataset) because it says Nationwide wants net income when their mortgage page asks for gross.
You know you are not eligible for a credit product due to your income. You decide to misstate your income in order to become eligible for the product. There is a very clear intent to make a gain for yourself by dishonestly making a false representation.
Also the minimum income requirements are there to protect the bank from a risk of loss by means of bad debt / defaults. Again dishonestly making a false representation you expose the bank to a materially greater risk of loss.
I would argue that it’s an open and shut case of fraud.
The act is very clear, that a gain must be fiscal in nature. It’s also worth mentioning that I don’t think these terms apply to me currently, so I am talking to them now asking for an increased credit limit on asset grounds.
No, they’re a commercial decision probably to keep people with no money away from products as they’re not massively profitable clients. The actual other reasoning behind that isn’t for you or me to speculate on.
There is rarely such a thing. If you ask a solicitor or barrister a question as nuanced as fraud is, and their answer isn’t “it depends”, you should find new counsel.
Majority i have seen ask for gross annual, very few have asked for monthly take home. So whenever I am filling forms if not specified, I go with the gross and leave it up to them to decide.
Just a little tidbit but AmEx have a 30 day time limit to contest credit limit decreases. As such, I’m out of luck and have to request an increase instead.
That is not monetary as it has no redeemable cash value. Not that it needs answering since in common law you don’t answer questions like this. There would be no ruling required on it, because it doesn’t meet the definition of fraud.
I think that would be very much up for debate about whether goods and services that you can exchange those points for could be considered “other property”. If so, then it’s fraud. My read is that the act is far from clear on that point.
If you don’t pay your card and open the account knowing you don’t plan to, yes that is fraud. Not sure how you’d prove the initial intent of that vs other circumstances but it definitely could be fraud.
But no, the value you have access to isn’t cash. It’s a credit facility that only becomes cash when you withdraw. Also, as mentioned in the act - intent must be proven. As I’ve made it clear, I pay my balance in full. That’s probably enough reasonable doubt to believe I wasn’t trying to defraud American Express.
Can you link to the part of the act you’re talking about or include a screenshot of the related text?
Section 2 of the Fraud Act probably covers this. The only intent required is intent to make a gain for himself or another or to expose another to risk of loss.
That being said, no one is likely to be charged with fraud for deliberately misrepresenting their income in order to gain some points.
I’ve just applied for a new bank account (I’ll talk about that in another thread in about a week’s time), and I was specifically asked for net income during the whole application process.
Yup, it meant me having to look at my most recent private pension letter to check what my actual monthly net payment is and then my bank account that my work salary gets paid into to check what that monthly amount is. All a bit of a ball ache but I got there.
There really was no point in me attempting to lie about my income. All of the information is collected by the credit reference agencies and will be visible during the hard search. Anyway, my application was approved and the new account is open.
As for Amex, I use it occasionally, I have the BA card, but I haven’t updated my income with them for ages.
